The Invisible Academy

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“Chapel Perilous, that vortex where cosmological speculations, coincidences, and paranoia seem to multiply and then collapse, compelling belief or lunacy, wisdom or agnosticism.” ~Robert Anton Wilson


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    The Khazars

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    The Khazars Empty The Khazars

    Post by Lucid Memes Sun May 03, 2009 5:12 pm

    I want to use this thread to discuss the various theories surrounding this group

    Before the Khazar Kaganate (350 - 627 CE)
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    The Rise of the Khazars (600 - 850 CE)
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    The Khazar Kaganate at its Height (850 CE)
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    The Decline and Fall of the Khazars (850 - 965 CE)
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    The Khazars were a semi-nomadic Turkic people who dominated the Pontic steppe and the North Caucasus from the 7th to the 10th century CE. The name 'Khazar'[1] seems to be tied to a Turkic verb form meaning "wandering".[2]

    In the 7th century CE, the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea. Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists, many of them converted to Christianity, Islam, and other religions. During the eighth or ninth century the state religion became Judaism. At their height, the Khazar khaganate and its tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Northern Caucasus ( Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya), parts of Georgia and the Crimea.

    Between 965 and 969, their sovereignty was broken by Sviatoslav I of Kiev, and they became a subject people of Kievan Rus'. Gradually displaced by the Rus, the Kipchaks, and later the conquering Mongol Golden Horde, the Khazars largely disappeared as a culturally distinct people.

    I underlined the and bolded the last sentence, cause I know a lot of people think otherwise

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    The Khazars Empty Re: The Khazars

    Post by Extant Sun May 03, 2009 6:49 pm

    The subject of the Khazars is an enigma really isn't it? Especially as it regards their last days. Where did they go?
    Anyone here read the Koestler book? Some fascinating material on their way of life and some of the other related hordes like the Bolgar. They were described as incredibly vulgar (from travelling Arab writers especially) and of vicious temperament. But it seems a large degree of bias may have come into many such reports. The story of one such visit by foreign dignitaries to the Khazar Kagan's royal tent relates how they were extremely offput by the Queen's open & unashamed revealing of her genitalia in order to scratch an itch. LOL. The visitors were quiet taken aback but the Kagan just laughed at them.

    There is some interesting stuff in this outlaw thread:

    The Khazars

    A lot of the material and information that Koestler presented in the book, from the ancient histories (from those such as Ahmad ibn fadlan), appeared in the film 'The 13th Warrior' that starred Antonio Banderas. The Vikings, or Rhos men in particular. Interesting we have 'The Thirteenth Tribe' and 'The 13th Warrior'. Were the exceedingly vicious, demonic, base, violent primitives in that film some sort of representation of the Khazars in some way? Even if they just were an inspiration for the Chrichton novel, a composite creation part of an amalgam of other historical hordes?

    I found it interesting that Koestler explored the possibility that the Khazars weren't practising Talmudists, but practising Karaites, a heresy as regarded by the Talmudists.
    Crimean Karaites: Wikipedia - Crimean Karaites

    Extract from "The Thirteenth Tribe" (p. 24 in the PDF version, pp. 73 - 74 in the hard copy):

    After the genealogy, Joseph mentions briefly some military conquests by his ancestors which carried them as far as the Danube; then follows at great length the story of Bulan’s conversion. “From this day onwards,” Joseph continues, “the Lord gave him strength and aided him; he had himself and his followers circumcized and sent for Jewish sages who taught him the Law and explained the Commandments.” There follow more boasts about military victories, conquered nations, etc., and then a significant passage:

    After these events, one of his [Bulan’s] grandsons became King; his name was Obadiab, he was a brave and venerated man who reformed the Rule, fortified the Law according to tradition and usage, built synagogues and schools, assembled a multitude of Israel’s sages, gave them lavish gifts of gold and silver, and made them interpret the twenty-four [sacred] books, the Mishna [Precepts] and the Talmud, and the order in which the liturgies are to be said.

    This indicates that, about a couple of generations after Bulan, a religious revival or reformation took place (possibly accompanied by a coup d’état on the lines envisaged by Artamonov). It seems indeed that the Judaization of the Khazars proceeded in several steps. We remember that King Bulan drove out “the sorcerers and idolators” before the angel appeared to him; and that he made his Covenant with the “true God” before deciding whether He was the Jewish, Christian or Muslim God. It seems highly probable that the conversion of King Bulan and his followers was another intermediary step, that they embraced a primitive or rudimentary form of Judaism, based on the Bible alone, excluding the Talmud, all rabbinical literature, and the observances derived from it. In this respect they resembled the Karaites, a fundamentalist sect which originated in the eighth century in Persia and spread among Jews all over the world particularly in “Little Khazaria”, i.e., the Crimea. Dunlop and some other authorities surmised that between Bulan and Obadiah (i.e., roughly between 740 and 800) some form of Karaism prevailed in the country, and that orthodox “Rabbinic” Judaism was only introduced in the course of Obadiah’s religious reform. The point is of some importance because Karaism apparently survived in Khazaria to the end, and villages of Turkish-speaking Karaite Jews, obviously of Khazar origin, still existed in modern times (see below, Chapter V, 4).


    @interepidpixie: The similarities between the words Khazar and Cathar is intriguing on a surface level. You say that the Cathars appeared not long after the Khazars fell off the map as a nomadic empire?
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    The Khazars Empty Re: The Khazars

    Post by Lucid Memes Sun May 03, 2009 7:07 pm

    Winston_Smith wrote:A lot of the material and information that Koestler presented in the book, from the ancient histories (from those such as Ahmad ibn fadlan), appeared in the film 'The 13th Warrior' that starred Antonio Banderas. The Vikings, or Rhos men in particular. Interesting we have 'The Thirteenth Tribe' and 'The 13th Warrior'. Were the exceedingly vicious, demonic, base, violent primitives in that film some sort of representation of the Khazars in some way? Even if they just were an inspiration for the Chrichton novel, a composite creation part of an amalgam of other historical hordes?

    Oh wow. That's funny you mention that. I haven't read the book, but I recently saw the movie. The tribe in that story (The Wendol) were supposed to be that last remanents of the Neanderthals

    I remember this talk by Watt (i put in spoiler tags to save space)
    Spoiler:

    Giving offerings to the bloodthirsty cave people is similar to the story of Beowulf IMO

    And Beowulf is a source of inspiration for Chrichton's "Eaters of the Dead" aka "The 13th Warrior"

    I hope this post doesn't distract too much from the topic at a hand
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    Post by Lucid Memes Sun May 03, 2009 9:07 pm

    And here's another thing to add

    Watt believes the Khazars became the Normans

    Spoiler:
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    The Khazars Empty Re: The Khazars

    Post by intrepidpixie Fri May 08, 2009 2:09 am

    Winston_Smith wrote:

    @interepidpixie: The similarities between the words Khazar and Cathar is intriguing on a surface level. You say that the Cathars appeared not long after the Khazars fell off the map as a nomadic empire?

    It`s not only the similarities in the words. There is a group of people who suddenly appeared into Northern Italy, Switzerland and Venice around the 9th or 10th century called the Gazari. I believe it meant heretic in Italian. The jewish huns who we know to be the Khazars were also called Gazari. I`ve heard someone ( I believe it was Kealey, but not certain) say that the Khazars went on to become the Black Nobility of Venice.
    Now look at the Cathars. Also called Cazari/Gazari. I wasnt aware of this until recently, but the Cathars were not confined to the region of Southern France. There were many Cathars in Northern Italy as well. They did not emerge in France until 1143. Perhaps both of these groups were gnostic chameleons and were one and the same.

    Yes Preston, I too recall that Watt said that the Khazars mysteriously showed up in France and morphed into the Normans.
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    Post by Lucid Memes Fri May 08, 2009 3:02 am

    Do you know anything about a possible Khazar connection to the Japanese Yakuza, Pixie?
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    Post by Extant Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:16 am

    Good resource for Khazars:

    Khazaria.com

    The guy who runs the site has released this book, looks very interesting:

    The Jews of Khazaria - Alan Brook

    Brooks' work continues ploughing the same furrow as Koestler but it may seem with more certainty and provides evidences. I'll have to wait and see when I get the book.

    The following book I've laboured to get hold due its scarcity:

    The History of the Jewish Khazars - D.M. Dunlop

    Koestler culled a huge portion of the info for his book "The Thirteenth Tribe" from that text, which many say is vastly superior and follows the same lines.
    Google cached page with small excerpts from the text:

    Khazar excerpts - Dunlop.


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    Post by Extant Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:26 pm

    The DNA of Abraham’s Children - Analysis of Jewish genomes refutes the Khazar claim

    Spoiler:
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    Post by Agogwe Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:32 am

    Okay, it's late here and I've been reading this stuff for awhile and it's all starting to blend. What are some of the theories of why the Khazars didn't decline and disappear as a culture? Is there something greater than they became Jewish converts? Thanks for all the information guys, I appreciate your work.
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    Post by Extant Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:47 am

    Only thing I've read is circumstantial and insubstantial. The similarities between the name of Khazar and Cazari, supposedly pointing to the Cathars as their descendents. Just input "khazars and cathars" into a search engine and a multitude of results will flood in. study

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